I've been thinking about this subject a bit. Yes, I know, I think about odd things but that's just the way I'm wired. Hell is such a controversial topic and I'm going to throw my hat into the ring of fire (no pun intended... well it was intended).
I have a hard time with the idea of hell. What I am going to present is merely an opinion built out of necessity and not necessarily founded on anything other than my paradigm. Hell seems ridiculous to me. Or at least the version of hell that I was taught my entire life (biblically based mind you.. not some weirdo faction or fringe view of hell). The idea of eternally punishing someone for choices made in an insignificant time period (when considered in the midst of eternity) doesn't add up to what the New Testament teaches us about forgiveness, love, etc.
Here's my deal, I find it hard to believe that God would expect us to uphold a standard that He isn't willing to uphold himself. Case in point, God tells us to forgive 70 x 7 times when someone wrongs you. We are supposed to turn the other cheek, we are supposed to give a thief our tunic if they take our cloak (or something like that). But wrong God once, and He will have none of it. Bam, you are doomed to fire and brimstone.
This doesn't add up to me. So what did I do? I came up with my own "hell" perspective. It happens to follow C.S. Lewis' line of thinking in "The Great Divorce" Hell is intended for those that choose to be there. Those who do not, are not limited to a finite time frame in which to make a choice.
Is this accurate? Is it biblical? I'm not sure. I know it isn't heretical (to most) but I also know it doesn't follow most people's view or upbringing. I really don't care about that. What I do care about is reconciling God's love and forgiveness with an idea of cruel and unusual punishment.
I know how the comments are going to go. I've heard them all. "But Phil, you're not God and his ways are perfect. Therefore if he chooses to do something, it's good and we need to 'Trust' his ways." Here's another one: "Where can you back that up in Scripture? The Bible speaks of fire, torture, hell, etc. for those who don't believe". And finally: "Are you a universalist?".
I'm not going to take the time to answer all of these right now. I have thought through these objections and many more, and that is why I'm comfortable with my position. However, I do not think I have it figured out. I don't claim to have answers on this subject. Merely speculation and opinion that helps me enjoy a relationship with God. However odd or one-sided that may be at this time.
Fire away!
10 comments:
Phil,
I think you and I think a lot alike! I love that you have the courage to put these thoughts out there knowing the usual answers that you'll probably get. As Christians we're usually really uncomfortable with these types of questions because they really challenge our faith. But to me...faith without logic is just dumb. I have to question these things because I can't just accept the canned answers I'm so used to hearing.
I couldn't agree with this post more. I've always had this very same problem about Hell. And sometimes I wonder if Christians really believe it deep in their heart. I've often thought about it, and if you truly believe that everyone on this earth who doesn't make the right choice is going to hell...you would spend every last dollar you had on missions. Think about how much excessive things we buy, and if you truly believe in Hell the way we were taught, how could you ever spend a single dime on something insignificant again rather than give to missions?
I guess I've always been able to resolve in my mind that the loving God that I know would give every opportunity to accept him. And why does this opportunity necessarily have to present itself before life ends? So the Bible doesn't say so, but I could definitely envision a scenario where each person was asked immediately after death and given the choice to follow Christ. I really can't resolve it in my mind that the choice must be made prior to death and that God wouldn't do everything he could to get you to accept him. After all, he's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Why is it that we think that the moment we accept Christ must come on this earth and can't come immediately after death?
For me, the Bible is really difficult. It seems to me that the more I get to know God and have that truly personal relationship with him I begin to ask more questions about the Bible and our interpretation of it. We think we have all the answers, but did God intentionally leave part of the picture out? I mean after all, how much do we know about heaven anyway? A super lot of details have been left out...and I guess I choose to believe that what we don't know about the afterlife is going to be in favor of love, forgiveness, and mercy. When you take away all of the theology and divisions among the body of Christ one thing remains....God loves us so much and wanted us to be with him in heaven so badly that he gave his son. Love prevails and love is what I have based my faith on. I trust him alone and I'm sorry to say it, I just don't always trust my (or other people’s) interpretations of the Bible. My faith in God is based on the Bible, but my relationship with him far transcends it. I'm allowing in my life the possibility that God is so much more loving than I can even imagine. If I can't imagine him sending people to hell who simply haven't heard about him, then I'm not going to put my faith in that. Call it "pick and choose", call it "unbiblical"...I don't care! :) I love the Lord with all of my heart and I think that is all that counts.
One more thing.... (this might be the longest comment ever) it has always been weird to me that religion uses Hell as a motivator for accepting Christ. Does God want to scare us into a relationship with me? That just doesn't jive with my instincts.
One more thing.... (you've really got me thinking about this one)
We all know this verse:
“It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27)
We have no idea what that judgement entails. Perhaps it is an opportunity for one to view their life and come to the realization that they need salvation. Maybe instead of it being a terribly awful event for the unsaved, it is a glorious last chance to be united with your maker and receive the gift of forgiveness for a life of unrepented sins. The thought of this just possibility gives me shivers...and somehow is much more consistent of what I know personally of God.
craig, candace, & bachelor,
I figured it wasn't the last two who wrote, but i'll add them in anyways. It's funny that you mentioned heaven in the reply because that will be the topic of my next post. I think you said a lot of what I was getting at, granted that I know it is a difficult position to back up and is based more on a personal relationship and less on a literal interpretation of scripture.
However, I think there is something to be said about the relationship side of things. Isn't the point of studying scripture to give us an opportunity to understand and know God better. What better way and lense to see God through then that of Christ. The one who came to love, forgive, but then he also warned of impending judgment for those who don't follow. I guess the idea of hell and what it is or isn't doesn't really bother me as much as the idea of when and why someone would go there and the motivation of why we should have a relationship with Him. I think you hit it on the head when you talked about our motives for following God should not always be out of fear.
I will be tying up this post and the one on heaven in a third post that I'm going to use to summarize my thoughts so stay tuned.
Also, thank you for your feedback. It's good to know there are people who think in a similar way. Sometimes it feels like i'm on an island, but i know that's usually not the case.
where do bad folks go when they die?
they don't go to heaven where the angels fly.
they go to a lake of fire and fry.
won't see em' again til' the fourth of july.
phil,
maybe you just don't understand that god is under a lot of pressure at work.
like the great Ike Turner in the sky. he only hurts us cause he loves us so much!!!
ok. so my turn lil bro.
i think you are forgetting a few things. god never said we were punished to death/hell for all eternity for our sinS. the only thing that can condemn you to hell is the one sin of rejection of christ. if you do not accept him as savior, make him lord of your life, then you choose to not be in fellowship with god. and that is the core of true love. it is the prerequisit to spending eternity in heaven. you forget, that even though, yes, the bible teaches us to forive 70 times 7, just as god does with us, wronging someone and rejecting christ can hardly be compared. god forgives those who've chosen to be under his umbrella of protection and he ALWAYS keeps this promise. but he also makes a strong statement that too many of us overlook. he says that if we do not forgive others, he will not forgive us. he can not, because he is just. why would he let us into heaven if we cannot forgive others AND do not want anything to do with his son, jesus. jesus is the only way to have connection with god. and i hate to break it to ya, but it doesn't matter what "your" perspective is on hell and how we get there. the bible teaches clearly what hell is like, i have never seen anything that talks about any kind of waiting period. AND the bible says the way we get there is by choice.
this "insignificant time period" is hardly insignificant. it IS the season he's given us to make our choices. to decide who we will bow down and worship. it in fact is the MOST significant period of time for us, even in regards to all eternity because if we can learn to be righteous and obedient here, we will most certainly reap the benefits of having intimacy with god here on earth AND in heaven.
i hate to say this, but i think sometimes you are listening to all the wrong people, that includes yourself. you are not the source of truth and life. god and his word alone are. there is none before or after him. HE makes the rules and you need to find it in your hear to believe and trust what his word says, no matter what your mind or feelings dictate to you. the enemy is on an outright warpath to decieve you. of course he wants you to think hell isn't what the bible says. of course he wants you to think god is unfair and unloving. anything to stear you just enough off course that you will miss your target all together. stay on track brother. i know you know what is right in your heart. so cling to it. believe in faith, not what you can see and touch!
closing statement: the reward for choosing christ is not heaven, although truely a benefit of doing so. the reward is finally being what we were created to be. having peace with in, knowing that we are complete as the holy spirit lives with in us. obedience is a commandment! we obey, we do all things (including forgive) as unto the lord, he in turn will come alive, supernaturally, powerfully, and will reveal himself in with such force we will fall to our knees. i think steven curtis chapman says it best:
And the pain falls like a curtain
On the things I once called certain
And I have to say the words I fear the most
I just don't know
And the questions without answers
Come and paralyze the dancer
So I stand here on the stage afraid to move
Afraid to fall, oh, but fall I must
On this truth that my life has been formed from the dust
God is God and I am not
I can only see a part of the picture He's painting
God is God and I am man
So I'll never understand it all
For only God is God
And the sky begins to thunder
And I'm filled with awe and wonder
Til the only burning question that remains
Is who am I
Can I form a single mountain
Take the stars in hand and count them
Can I even take a breath without God giving it to me
He is first and last before all that has been
Beyond all that will pass
Oh, how great are the riches of His wisdom and knowledge
How unsearchable for to Him and through Him and from Him are all things
So let us worship before the throne
Of the One who is worthy of worship alone
Steph,
Good feedback. I appreciate the thought and time you put into this response. I figured that my opinion would ruffle a few feathers and I'm glad that if nothing else, it has helped people think about what they believe in an attempt to refine their position.
That being said, I think you may be right, but I also think you may be wrong. I think both of us can agree on what the scripture says, but when we turn that into some sort of doctrine on hell, that is where I believe there is room to differ. And isn't that what this post was about anyways? I stated that this opinion was founded on nothing other than "my lense" and my paradigm. It's all I got. I'm definitely open to other opinions but the one that you have expressed is the same one I have grown up hearing. It doesn't make it wrong, but it doesn't make it right either. And I think this is the point of difference for us. I'm okay with not knowing. I'm okay with the paradox. I don't need to have an authoritative position on every Christian topic, and you know how difficult of a journey that has been for me. It's one I'm still on.
The point is that we CAN'T know. We can believe, we can trust, we can interpret, and we can have faith that what we read and what we know about God is true. But we CAN'T "know" it to be true. We do not have the capacity to do this. We are not omniscient and therefore can't account for every possibility both now and eternally. That means that what we have to go on is our perception of things (our lense) and trust that it is true.
It's the "not knowing" part and the trust part that makes a relationship with God so difficult.. but so rewarding too. If I'm able to take the part of me that must know everything out of the relationship equation, then I'm left with a very humble but very faithful side as well. It allows me to be open and allows me to hear things and be open to things that I never would have taken the time to listen to because I would have been too busy defending why I'm right.
I think there is a good possibility that my opinion on hell is wrong. But it isn't the point. The point is that I've finally gotten to a place where I can come to God without placing him into a box and making him fit my definition of who He is. And I know that you are doing the same.
Dont' forget, we're on the same team here, but I'm done with picking sides and trying to figure out who's "in" or who's "out" based upon anything other than who is closest to Christ. Even then, it's not up to me to decide that.
how is someone supposed to not listen to their self? if one can't trust his own mind to observe and understand the world around him, who's mind is one to trust?
I agree with you. We are all we got. Regardless of the source of knowledge, it all gets filtered through us.
Are you a U2 fan or just informed of pop culture latin? I dig the name... and I really dig the band and video the name links to.
i am most certainly not a U2 fan.
Sean, I totally missed your comment. I hadn't checked in a while and the last one I saw was Sparky's. Sorry dude.
One of the great songs that too many people forget. What is his pressure you are referring to? Is there a pressure God can create that is too much for even him?
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